n.b.Doesn't seem to display for me, so here's a link to it. Full screen.
Fixed.
In future, the tag only requires the video ID.
Was Osama executed or should he have been captured?
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:51 am
by Shroombuck
If you analyse the speech of President Barack Obama in regard to the death of Osama, and take a close look at page 3, then you will find that it reads:
"(...) after the fire fight, they killed him and took care of his body (...)"
This indicates that Osama was killed after the fire fight with the Navy SEALs instead of being killed during the fire fight. This might sound trivial and the joy is understandable, but it endorses what looks increasingly like a summary execution ordered by a president who, as a former law professor, knows the absurdity of his statement that justice was done. Amoral diplomats and triumphant politicians join in applauding Osama's summary execution because they claim real justice: arrest, trial and sentence would have been too difficult. But in the long-term interests of a better world, should it not at least have been attempted?
That future depends on a respect for international law. The circumstances of Osama's killing are as yet unclear and the initial objection that the operation was an illegitimate invasion of Pakistan's sovereignty must be rejected. Necessity required the capture of this indicted and active international criminal and Pakistan's abject failure (whether through incompetence or connivance) justified President Obama's order for an operation to apprehend him. However, the terms of that order, as yet undisclosed, are all important. Bill Clinton admitted recently to having secretly approved the assassination of Osama by the CIA after the US embassy bombings in the 1990s, while George Bush publicly said after 9/11 that he wanted Osama's head on a plate. The questions therefore remains did President Obama order his capture, or his execution?
Details of the so-called fire fight remain obscure. The law permits criminals to be shot in self-defence. They should, if possible, be given the opportunity to surrender, but even if they do not come out with their hands up, they must be taken alive, if that can be achieved without risk. Exactly how Osama came to be shot (especially if it was in the back of the head, execution-style) therefore requires explanation. Why the hasty burial at sea without a post-mortem, as the law requires?
But the chorus celebrating summary execution is rationalised on the basis that this is one terrorist for whom trial would be unnecessary, difficult and dangerous. It overlooks the downsides - that killing Osama has made him a martyr - more dangerous in that posthumous role than in hiding, and that both his legend and the conspiracy theories about 9/11 will live on undisputed by the evidence that would have been called at his trial. Even worse, killing Osama gave him the consummation he most devoutly wished, namely a fast-track to paradise. His belief system required him to die mid-Jihad, from an infidel bullet - not of old age on a prison farm in upstate New York. For this reason he would have refused any offer to surrender, and no doubt died with a smile on his lips.
I do not minimise the security issues at his trial or the danger of it ending up as a squalid circus like that of Saddam Hussein. But the notion that any form of legal process would have been too hard must be rejected. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - also alleged to be the architect of 9/11 - will shortly go on trial and had Osama been captured, he should have been put in the dock alongside him, so that their shared responsibility could have been properly examined.
Osama could not have been tried for 9/11 at the International Criminal Court - its jurisdiction only came into existence nine months later. But the Security Council could have set up an ad hoc tribunal in The Hague (Netherlands), with international judges, to provide a fair trial and a reasoned verdict. This would have been the best way of de-mystifying this man, debunking his cause and de-brainwashing his followers. In the dock he would have been reduced in stature - never more remembered as the tall, soulful figure on the mountain, but as a hateful and hate-filled old man, screaming from the dock or lying from the witness box.
Since his videos exalt in the killing of innocent civilians, any cross-examination would have emphasised his inhumanity. These benefits flowing from justice have forever been foregone. America's belief in capital punishment is reflected in its rejoicing at the manner of Osama's demise. It is ironic to reflect that Bill Clinton secured his election by approving the execution of Ricky Roy Rector (a convict so brain-damaged that he ordered pumpkin pie for his last meal and said that he would "leave the rest until later"). And now President Obama has most likely secured his re-election approving the execution of Osama. This may be welcome, given the alternatives. But it is a sad reflection on the continuing attraction of summary justice.
It was not always thus. When the time came to consider the fate of men much more steeped in wickedness than Osama - the Nazi leadership - His Majesty's Government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture. President Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson that summary execution "would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride, the only course is to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear." He insisted upon judgment at Nuremberg, which has confounded Holocaust-deniers ever since.
Killing instead of capturing Osama was a missed opportunity to prove to the world that this charismatic leader was in fact a vicious criminal, who deserved to die of old age in prison, and not as a martyr to his inhuman cause.
Re: Osama Bin Laden DEAD!!!!!
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:58 am
by BobO369
Moved to the correct forum.
Re: Osama Bin Laden DEAD!!!!!
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:57 am
by Carbonizer
I think Bin Laden could have been a scapegoat or at least part of a larger plan.
Re: Osama Bin Laden DEAD!!!!!
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:03 pm
by EVOXSNES
The Death of Bin laden got the US everything it didn't want. And they're out in the streets singing and dancing. Now we can debate the intention of the team that went in. Kill or Capture and what opportunities where missed, intentionally or not but the death of Bin Laden isn't good.
Remember the Nuremberg Trials? Allies had the intelligence to put on trial all possible, those responsible for countless deaths. The process of illumination has made that country humble... ever weary of the Hitlers Germany. They'll never forget it and neither will anyone else. Not to mention that it set a standard of how to conduct these sorts of things.
It showed the rest of the world the United States backing up every non-religious, righteous word. Because believe me when i tell you that real Justice and Freedom go hand in hand.
Yes. He was a bastard but (on the assumption of intention - as above) allowing people like Laden to escape a courtroom on into legend. Doesn't do anything.
Some of you might find this offensive but when i saw the news i literally said to myself... "Who Cares" - Because I knew it wasn't a victory.
i do care about the flow on effect...
Australian soldiers over in Afghanistan are trying to win people over simply by telling the truth. providing help wherever needed, training and all sorts. They have to fend off propoganda from minor extremist groups telling the villagers god knows.
So when this grand carnival of contradiction is played out in the streets in front of the white house. It gives the extremist wing groups more proof that when the chips are down, the west words are all bullshit. It has the potential to needlessly threaten their lives and makes it that much more difficult to help these people as they are only starting to learn of us, by meeting us.
I don't know of any fallout. I don't know of any kind of impact this will have and i cant possible imagine the scope. I just know that Bin ladens death is a gigantic wasted opportunity for the man who orchestrated mass murder. To never find himself in a witness box experiencing the liberal, civil Justice of the western world....
rotting in jail behind bars with all of Americas cable to brain wash the prick
Re: Osama Bin Laden DEAD!!!!!
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:57 pm
by Costello
The despatching of Bin Laden was a mistake, a typical American one lacking foresight I might add. That is not to stir up cultural differences, it is merely a western tendency. Bin Laden has perished as a martyr, invincible in the hearts of his supporters. Had he been captured, he would have been valuable as an informant, propaganda piece and statement of the triumph of 'good' versus 'evil', because the altruistic side does not kill the enemy leader - sadly a lesson the US has yet to learn. Even Obama's address to the nation lacked gratitude, I think he knows this is not the greatest of outcomes.
